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EASIT. Easy Access
for Social Inclusion Training.

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Unit 3A

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Easy-to-understand and subtitling

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element 1, Processes,
Interview with professionals.

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This video includes an interview
with Kate Dangerfield

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filmmaker and PhD student

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at the University of Roehampton
in London.

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Kate has a background
in accessible filmmaking

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an area in which she collaborated,
amongst others

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with the UK charity Sense,
the British Film Institute

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the Centre for Voluntary
Sector Leadership

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at the Open University

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and PAL.TV.

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Her accessible filmmaking work
was screened

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at the Victoria
and Albert Museum in London

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as part of the Open Senses festival
in 2017.

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In this interview,
Kate talks about the potential use

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of easy-to-understand subtitles
for one of her films

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the benefits of taking
an integrated approach

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to media accessibility

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and the need to question

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whether accessibility
is really benefitting all viewers.

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Hello. My name's Pablo Romero.

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I work at Universidade de Vigo
in Spain

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and it is a pleasure to be here today

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to interview Kate Dangerfield.

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Hello, Kate. How are you?
-I am fine, thanks.

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So, just a brief introduction.

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Kate's doing a PhD
at the University of Roehampton

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in the UK.

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This is a practical
and theoretical thesis

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so a combination
of practice and research

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involving filmmaking

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which is entitled
"Within Sound and Image."

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Also, we have a written thesis
that Kate is writing about it

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with the same title plus the subtitle

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"The theory and practice
of accessible filmmaking."

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Kate, can you tell us a little bit
about this project

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and also about the participants
you are working with?

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Thanks.

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Yes, I am doing
a practice and research PhD

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and I did workshops

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with three different groups of people

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and I was working
with the charity Sense

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the national disability charity
in the UK

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and the project was funded
by the British Film Institute

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but we did workshops,
three different workshops

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filmmaking workshops.

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In those workshops, we had
the same starting point

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but the participants
were free to explore their own ideas

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and there were three key questions
that we were looking at:

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which equipment was accessible

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how they used film as a means
of communication and expression

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and how to make the content
they made accessible to them.

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So, I think that is
really the focus of today

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but what we then did...

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or what I did
is that I did interviews with people

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who were either
involved in the project

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or I met through the research.

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They were people who would also
be considered as disabled people

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but not people with...

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not people with learning disabilities.

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So they commented on...

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They watched the films

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they talked to me about the project

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and also their experiences with film

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whether in the arts
or in the industry.

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And so... then...

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So this documentary is the footage
from the workshops, the interviews

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and that discussion.

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Brilliant. So there is two layers, right?

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The participants
with whom you made the workshops

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and then those kind of experts
with maybe different disabilities

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who were looking at those workshops
and watching the footage.

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Those two layers.

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Kate, could you describe
a little bit about...

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Because, I recall, as I said before

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that when we started this project

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you were refering
to some of your participants

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or even writing about the participants

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as deaf-blind participants

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but now you talk about participants
with complex communication needs.

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What is the difference there?
Why the change?

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Yes. I think that the initial aim

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was to look at how content
can be accessible to deaf-blind people

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that was the initial aim
of the research.

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Also, I was working with Sense
and they considered themselves

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at that point
as a deaf-blind charity.

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But then...

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Sorry, but even when you
refer to deaf-blind at that stage

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you and the charity

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just for the people
who may not have experience with this

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we are not talking about
fully deaf and fully blind, are we?

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Or not only about that?

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Is it about different degrees
of visual and hearing loss?

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Exactly, different degrees.

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So, some people were

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but not everybody

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and it was very, very different

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really fast difference
between the people I worked with

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which you can see
through the film, actually.

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Nobody I worked with especifically

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was totally deaf and totally blind.

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But very, very different experiences
for each person.

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And I think, so…

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Sense is known now
as the national disability charity

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rather than the deaf-blind charity

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so I think there is a shift
in that sense

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but also looking through the research

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and looking into disability studies...

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I talk about...

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When I say disabled people

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I'd say disabled first
rather than people with disabilities

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and that's something that is tied up
with the UK social model of thinking.

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And then also as my position
as a non-disabled person

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I say complex communication needs

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because it is about access
and that's really my perspective

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rather than
focussing on their impairments.

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But if I'm respeaking with them,
I would go by whatever they decided...

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How they wanted to term themselves.

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That's very interesting.

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I don’t think I’ve ever heard
that perspective of talking about this

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or talking about them
as people with complex access needs

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just because that’s the way
you look at the situation

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from your able perspective, of course.

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That’s very interesting.

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So I would imagine
that now one of the challenges

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is to make the film accessible.

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Because of the nature of this project

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that deals with subtitles
for easy-to-understand language

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which in this project encompasses
plain language and easy-to-read

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how do you see
the role of these subtitles

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in a film like yours for example

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or what do you think
the role could be

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and have you considered any…

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What have you played with?

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What tools
are you thinking about using

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to make your film
accessible in general?

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Yes, so really…

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From each course of workshops

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we looked at different forms of access

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so the first guy I was working with
needed subtitles

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and actually standard subtitles
would be totally fine for him.

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Okay.
-And then...

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But then the group in Cambridge
that I worked with

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that actually audio description
was more suitable for them

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but also their communication…

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Their means of communication

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was through something
called widget symbols.

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Can you explain to us
what that is?

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Yes. That is like a…

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It is pictures to support speech

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or some people use it like as speech.

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So… I will send you an example of it.

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But basically they are small cards
or small pictures

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which would have like an activity on
or anything that they wanted to say

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and they would use these symbols
as a means to communicate

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or to make choices
and things like that.

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In many ways, that could be seen

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as easy-to-understand

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type of subtitled content, right?

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Yes, I think… I mean it is something
that I considered at that point

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whether or not
it could be something.

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Each workshop
was about making content accessible

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to the people that made the film

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so really focussed
on individual needs.

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But, so...

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Actually, for the film
that we made with them

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we used the widget symbols
for the titles and then...

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but really tried to focus on images

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and there was so very little dialogue
in their film that we put together.

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That was something
we thought about while making it

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so taking an accessible
filmmaking approach in that sense.

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So it wasn’t…

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The thing is, I think
with those widgets symbols

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which is why
we went for that approach

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was that...

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they used them and it’s static

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it’s not a moving image

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so they have time to consider
which symbol they want to use

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and then...

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it takes time

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and actually
whether that’s suitable for a film

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is a totally different situation.
I think

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you have to do a lot of research

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to work out
if it's suitable or not.

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One thing that striked me

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when I watched the versions
you showed me

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about your film so far

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is that you cannot have the luxury

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of focussing only on subtitles

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and see if subtitles
may be or not simplified

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in a different way

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because obviously you have to combine
different forms of access

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almost at the same time, right?

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So, to give an idea

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and I’m sure we can show
some examples

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in the final version
of this video

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you have used audio introductions

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you have used audio description

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sometimes, those subtitles in themselves
are introductions within the film

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to certain parts of the film.

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You have also used, Kate, a kind of…

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You also froze some frames, right?

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Frozen frames,
so you can pause the film

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and describe what's going on

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and I guess that description
that you’re using

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when you pause a particular frame

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that would need
to be subtitled, right?

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Yes.

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So, I would imagine…

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There is time to do it

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because then
you are pausing the film. Yes.

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Exactly, exactly. So then, even if
you were to use subtitles

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that maybe are not simplified so to speak

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the fact that you’re giving time
to read them

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also helps in many different ways.

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Okay, and since you are combining
all these different options then

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does that mean you're thinking about

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having all those options combined

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as an attempt to make
one version of the film

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that's accessible to everyone, to all?

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For my submission
there will be one version

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and I’m trying to make it
as accessible as possible

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to everybody that was involved

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but…

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that is not to say that I consider it
to be accessible to everybody.

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And so...

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So, yeah, I think then, later on

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I would consider other options
of how to make it accessible

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in different ways.

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And there’s gonna be...

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And actually
there’s gonna be two versions.

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There's gonna be
another version with…

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There is one version
that’s integrated audio description

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and then there is one version

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with what'd be considered
more standard audio description.

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Okay, for those
who haven't heard about this

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integrated audio description would be
the one that's not traditional

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that is done in collaboration
with the filmmaker

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that moves away from guidelines

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and includes the audio description
as part of an overall description.

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So it doesn't feel like an add-on

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whereas audio description would be…

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a standard audio description
would be more of a…

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an added-on track

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that doesn't merge
with the narration.

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It's intentionally built
for what it is, to provide access.

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Yes. The beginning of the film

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is integrated audio description

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which would be suitable

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but then I'm exploring
other ideas later in the film.

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For instance

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there are parts where the sound
isn't really good quality

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and for somebody who's blind

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that's really problematic

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whereas some blind people
wouldn't mind if…

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because it's part of the film

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and it's a different experience
as it's more about the sound

260
00:13:40,873 --> 00:13:42,299
and maybe not so

261
00:13:43,494 --> 00:13:45,534
especific on what's being said.

262
00:13:45,763 --> 00:13:48,631
They'd be happy with that,
but other people

263
00:13:48,931 --> 00:13:52,002
would want to know
what's being said, so...

264
00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:53,220
I think...

265
00:13:54,482 --> 00:13:56,581
I can't cater for everybody

266
00:13:56,765 --> 00:14:00,796
but I'm gonna try,
as much as I know how to

267
00:14:01,051 --> 00:14:04,257
I'm gonna try and cater
for the people involved.

268
00:14:05,026 --> 00:14:06,606
That's very interesting.

269
00:14:06,954 --> 00:14:09,390
As I hear your answers

270
00:14:09,641 --> 00:14:11,732
I can't help but think that...

271
00:14:12,083 --> 00:14:14,254
for viewers who may be thinking

272
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:17,230
"I was expecting content on subtitles

273
00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:20,056
in E2U language"

274
00:14:20,354 --> 00:14:23,131
there's two
take-aways, one being

275
00:14:23,967 --> 00:14:28,611
that, commonly, when dealing
with participants like yours

276
00:14:29,074 --> 00:14:30,466
you can't just

277
00:14:30,864 --> 00:14:33,189
separate access services

278
00:14:33,721 --> 00:14:35,945
as completely different sections.

279
00:14:36,166 --> 00:14:39,216
It's all part of complex
communication needs.

280
00:14:39,538 --> 00:14:41,818
So they live with those…

281
00:14:42,124 --> 00:14:44,490
The use of simplified subtitles

282
00:14:44,633 --> 00:14:48,252
lives with the rest
of the access services, right?

283
00:14:48,841 --> 00:14:52,072
Everything needs
to be considered holistically

284
00:14:52,506 --> 00:14:55,452
so you can be able
to choose what you need.

285
00:14:55,644 --> 00:14:57,503
That's what I was thinking.

286
00:14:58,647 --> 00:15:01,750
Related to that is the fact
that you seem to be

287
00:15:02,018 --> 00:15:05,018
given up on the prospect
of creating a version

288
00:15:05,247 --> 00:15:10,366
that caters for all and I wonder
whether we are actually guilty of…

289
00:15:10,590 --> 00:15:14,190
because of the catchy nature
of the slogan "for all"

290
00:15:14,449 --> 00:15:17,198
guilty of using it
in a way that maybe

291
00:15:17,777 --> 00:15:20,288
is not completely accurate because...

292
00:15:20,579 --> 00:15:24,867
it seems difficult to provide
a version that's accessible to all.

293
00:15:25,542 --> 00:15:28,470
In some of the videos of this project

294
00:15:28,718 --> 00:15:29,718
we've heard

295
00:15:31,332 --> 00:15:34,790
the discussion of whether
these simplified subtitles

296
00:15:35,026 --> 00:15:36,425
could be widespread

297
00:15:36,706 --> 00:15:40,437
or could be an alternative
to more standard subtitles.

298
00:15:41,384 --> 00:15:44,382
So, two questions
to you, the first one:

299
00:15:45,324 --> 00:15:47,318
Do you think that when...?

300
00:15:47,783 --> 00:15:52,292
First of all, are you given up
on the idea of one version for all?

301
00:15:52,463 --> 00:15:54,229
Is it impossible?

302
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:58,287
Do we have to accept
that in order to get to everyone

303
00:15:58,861 --> 00:16:01,520
we will need more versions?

304
00:16:01,850 --> 00:16:04,317
Should we start thinking about that?

305
00:16:05,347 --> 00:16:09,340
Yes, from the research
and the people that I've worked with

306
00:16:10,067 --> 00:16:12,094
even so, say

307
00:16:12,672 --> 00:16:14,177
around 10 people

308
00:16:15,002 --> 00:16:16,284
in the workshops

309
00:16:17,181 --> 00:16:18,259
and then

310
00:16:18,855 --> 00:16:20,980
the 4 people that were involved

311
00:16:22,055 --> 00:16:23,220
in the interviews

312
00:16:23,614 --> 00:16:26,638
and even on such a small, small scale

313
00:16:26,993 --> 00:16:31,252
it's not possible to find a way
that's accessible for everyone.

314
00:16:31,475 --> 00:16:34,322
So there's this thing…
-That's fascinating.

315
00:16:34,606 --> 00:16:37,165
There have to be
compromises throughout.

316
00:16:37,377 --> 00:16:39,405
So… yeah… I think…

317
00:16:39,665 --> 00:16:41,588
It's not giving up on access

318
00:16:41,959 --> 00:16:43,851
but it's giving up on...

319
00:16:44,728 --> 00:16:47,695
on the idea that it's possible to…

320
00:16:48,427 --> 00:16:51,250
Absolutely. I don't see that as...

321
00:16:52,284 --> 00:16:53,990
I don't say that in despair

322
00:16:54,346 --> 00:16:57,192
and I don't see 
any loss of hope there

323
00:16:57,547 --> 00:17:00,192
so I don't come out
with a bad feeling.

324
00:17:00,442 --> 00:17:04,637
I just think the first question
is the idea that the for all...

325
00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:08,868
or bringing here the idea
that the for all may be catchy

326
00:17:09,091 --> 00:17:10,221
but not accurate

327
00:17:10,435 --> 00:17:13,422
and if we want
to actually cater for all

328
00:17:13,611 --> 00:17:17,502
we're gonna have to cater
for almost everyone, which means

329
00:17:17,958 --> 00:17:19,793
making distinctions and...

330
00:17:20,637 --> 00:17:23,401
In your case, you dealt
with only 10 people

331
00:17:23,598 --> 00:17:26,137
and the differences within them

332
00:17:27,144 --> 00:17:31,723
who've been addressed as deaf-blind
and people with complex needs...

333
00:17:31,978 --> 00:17:35,428
The differences made
it impossible to reach them all

334
00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:38,023
with just the one version. So…

335
00:17:38,703 --> 00:17:40,536
And also has changes like…

336
00:17:40,952 --> 00:17:45,104
one of the participants
I worked with in the first workshops

337
00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:47,947
he used subtitles at the beginning

338
00:17:48,263 --> 00:17:52,075
but actually then
his hearing aids were tweaked

339
00:17:52,302 --> 00:17:55,242
and he wasn't using subtitles
by the end of it

340
00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:58,312
so also this changed
over time as well

341
00:18:00,439 --> 00:18:03,510
you know? They're not things
you can pinpoint.

342
00:18:04,147 --> 00:18:07,368
It sounds very complex,
but also fascinating

343
00:18:08,026 --> 00:18:12,036
because it means that we're gonna
have to start thinking

344
00:18:12,392 --> 00:18:15,084
individually about the different needs

345
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,988
instead of just thinking of big groups

346
00:18:18,277 --> 00:18:21,306
that, inevitably,
aren't heterogeneous at all.

347
00:18:22,364 --> 00:18:25,869
So, when you do start
thinking about that, about...

348
00:18:27,353 --> 00:18:31,643
having those people in mind
who you want to get the film to

349
00:18:33,137 --> 00:18:38,034
are E2U subtitles a possibility
in some of the versions of the film?

350
00:18:39,005 --> 00:18:43,182
I would definitely if somebody...
if somebody contacted me…

351
00:18:43,678 --> 00:18:45,544
What I'm planning to do is…

352
00:18:46,083 --> 00:18:49,043
I'll put the film out
with the access I can

353
00:18:49,306 --> 00:18:52,437
and then say that if people
need other access…

354
00:18:52,699 --> 00:18:56,248
if they have other
access requirements to contact me

355
00:18:56,428 --> 00:18:58,787
I can try and arrange that.

356
00:18:59,778 --> 00:19:04,671
I think it's a possibility if somebody
came to me and asked for it.

357
00:19:05,604 --> 00:19:07,346
I would consider it.

358
00:19:08,802 --> 00:19:09,865
And Kate...

359
00:19:10,141 --> 00:19:13,318
I'm trying to empathise
with the viewers

360
00:19:14,074 --> 00:19:17,723
who may not have prior
knowledge about your project

361
00:19:17,935 --> 00:19:19,611
and may be amazed

362
00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:25,320
by looking at and speaking to
what I'd call an accessible filmmaker

363
00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:30,487
in this case, accessible about media
access and accessible filmmaker

364
00:19:32,057 --> 00:19:34,156
who's considering the… I mean

365
00:19:34,677 --> 00:19:37,701
we can't expect many people
to have your views

366
00:19:37,902 --> 00:19:41,819
as you've been trained in both
media access and filmmaking

367
00:19:42,517 --> 00:19:43,743
and you understand

368
00:19:44,514 --> 00:19:48,913
the complex needs that many
different individuals may have.

369
00:19:49,371 --> 00:19:51,333
But can we…? So, in your case

370
00:19:51,768 --> 00:19:54,279
in our view, it's great to hear this

371
00:19:54,741 --> 00:19:56,485
but how scalable is this?

372
00:19:57,118 --> 00:20:01,593
How can we have… How can we ensure
that we have more filmmakers

373
00:20:01,845 --> 00:20:04,958
who are aware of all this?

374
00:20:05,595 --> 00:20:08,000
Will they feel like it's too much?

375
00:20:08,233 --> 00:20:10,911
How can they be expected to provide

376
00:20:11,410 --> 00:20:15,782
a version with a specific form
of access for a specific person?

377
00:20:16,141 --> 00:20:17,428
How is that…

378
00:20:18,155 --> 00:20:20,693
I don't know…
How can we keep this up?

379
00:20:20,892 --> 00:20:22,059
Yeah.

380
00:20:22,324 --> 00:20:25,416
Well… I think the main thing is also…

381
00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:28,723
is the shift in thinking

382
00:20:28,987 --> 00:20:31,914
and that doesn't happen overnight.

383
00:20:32,748 --> 00:20:35,916
It's sort of one step
at a time with everything.

384
00:20:36,284 --> 00:20:39,532
If you're interested
in making things accessible

385
00:20:39,781 --> 00:20:43,211
then possibly look
at one thing first and…

386
00:20:44,123 --> 00:20:47,161
And keep trying and, you know?

387
00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:49,150
I think quite often

388
00:20:50,521 --> 00:20:54,164
it's difficult to always
get it right and I think...

389
00:20:54,727 --> 00:20:59,817
Just keep trying different options
and getting feedback from people.

390
00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:04,266
So... But I think… You know?
-I agree, Kate.

391
00:21:04,565 --> 00:21:07,724
It's a shift
that doesn't just need to happen

392
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:10,329
in filmmaking or media accessibility

393
00:21:10,564 --> 00:21:14,321
it's about generally everything
being more inclusive.

394
00:21:14,556 --> 00:21:18,979
So, it's a shift in thinking
that needs to happen generally.

395
00:21:20,738 --> 00:21:24,198
I agree. When discussing
these things I tend to think

396
00:21:25,215 --> 00:21:30,016
that filmmakers need to know, first,
about very general access

397
00:21:30,415 --> 00:21:33,215
and disability,
starting with the basics.

398
00:21:33,625 --> 00:21:37,045
Then you take them
to where we are in media access

399
00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:41,137
which is to the idea of "we have
audio description, subtitles

400
00:21:41,436 --> 00:21:44,814
subtitles that could be E2U subtitles

401
00:21:45,395 --> 00:21:47,432
filmmakers can collaborate."

402
00:21:47,663 --> 00:21:49,896
That's where we can take them

403
00:21:50,339 --> 00:21:53,852
but we can take them
further, which is where you are

404
00:21:54,125 --> 00:21:57,547
which is fine, but the for all slogan

405
00:21:57,755 --> 00:22:00,456
may not be working
because individually

406
00:22:00,964 --> 00:22:02,620
some people are left behind

407
00:22:03,247 --> 00:22:07,480
and then there's a need for more
individualised types of access

408
00:22:07,794 --> 00:22:12,171
and looking into more of the trees
rather than just the forest.

409
00:22:12,487 --> 00:22:16,209
And it might be more encouraging
without the for all

410
00:22:16,496 --> 00:22:19,102
because actually
that's pretty daunting.

411
00:22:19,330 --> 00:22:22,061
Thinking that you're catering
for everyone...

412
00:22:22,621 --> 00:22:24,936
maybe that's when people shut off.

413
00:22:25,526 --> 00:22:28,464
And the for all could
disappoint those people

414
00:22:28,663 --> 00:22:33,172
who are meant to be within this "all"
and are not there, right?

415
00:22:33,402 --> 00:22:35,892
It's something that's not possible.

416
00:22:36,502 --> 00:22:41,105
Absolutely. Kate, thank you
very much for being here today

417
00:22:41,478 --> 00:22:43,766
it's been great to have you here

418
00:22:44,002 --> 00:22:47,507
to hear about how your project
relates to this one

419
00:22:47,718 --> 00:22:52,552
and to hear about the possibility
of you using this type of subtitles

420
00:22:52,941 --> 00:22:56,325
in one way or another
once there's a need for it.

421
00:22:56,544 --> 00:23:00,265
We'll be keeping an eye
on what you do and how you do it.

422
00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:05,220
In my view it's fantastic
to see somebody who's so aware

423
00:23:05,734 --> 00:23:08,016
of access and its complexity

424
00:23:08,597 --> 00:23:11,696
and who's also a filmmaker,
because, you know

425
00:23:11,931 --> 00:23:14,070
we need more people like you.

426
00:23:15,103 --> 00:23:17,500
It's been great to have you here.

427
00:23:17,738 --> 00:23:19,989
It's been really interesting.

428
00:23:20,558 --> 00:23:24,649
Good luck with your project
and we look forward to reading it

429
00:23:24,833 --> 00:23:27,338
and to watching the film.
Thanks, Kate.

430
00:23:27,642 --> 00:23:28,701
Thank you.

431
00:23:30,679 --> 00:23:33,859
This video was prepared
by Pablo Romero-Fresco

432
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:35,948
from Universidade de Vigo

433
00:23:36,238 --> 00:23:39,725
and Kate Dangerfield,
from the University of Roehampton

434
00:23:40,305 --> 00:23:44,598
and produced by Jesús Meiriño-Gómez
from Universidade de Vigo.

435
00:23:47,247 --> 00:23:50,915
EASIT has received funding
from the EC programme

436
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:55,216
Erasmus+ Strategic Partnerships
for Higher Education

437
00:23:55,533 --> 00:24:02,310
grant agreement
2018-1-ES01-KA203-05275.

438
00:24:03,055 --> 00:24:06,185
The EC support for this publication

439
00:24:06,381 --> 00:24:08,694
does not endorse the contents

440
00:24:09,082 --> 00:24:11,219
which reflect the authors' views.

441
00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:13,598
The EC cannot be held responsible

442
00:24:13,828 --> 00:24:17,427
for any use
of the information contained therein.