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We're about to meet Mia Ahlgren who works
at the Swedish Disability Rights Federation.

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We're going to talk about
active participation in design processes.

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Hello Mia, can you tell us 
a little about yourself?

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My name is Mia Ahlgren.
I work for an umbrella organisation,

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for 46 organisations called
the Swedish Disability Rights Federation.

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We're not that many employees.
That means you do many different things.

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I work with, among other things,
rights for people with disabilities,

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we all do, but accessibility,
universal design, standardisation,

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and many other things.
-Many different things.

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There are many different terms
or names for active involvement.

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What do you use?
Can you discuss these terms a little?

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That's true, there are many names.
"Design for all" has been used within the EU.

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But then the Convention
for rights for people with disabilities came.

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They started using the term
"universal design".

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Those who did research on it tie it to the
built environment and several principles.

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But in the Convention
it's more about involving users.

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That everything new you develop should
be made so that as many as possible,

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can use it.
Including people with disabilities.

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It's also important to make sure
that all people you involve are different.

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We all have different qualities
and one such quality could be a disability.

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Why is it important to involve users
and other stakeholders in development processes?

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If you want to be certain,

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that the things you create
can be used by as many people as possible,

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you need to involve
those who are experts.

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It is those who face obstacles
that knows what doesn't work.

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They can make sure the solutions
are improved and reach all the way.

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It is also important,
if you're making a ticket machine for example,

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that you involve those working 
with public transport.

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So it will work the entire way.

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How does one work with active participation,
and what should one keep in mind?

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I'd like to tell you, speaking of
the Convention and rights, that theres another term,

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about active involvement
in decision making processes.

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This is a civil and political right that
organisations for people with disabilities have.

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You need to be involved
in political decision making processes.

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You have to be,
and there are guidelines on how this,

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can be done in an effective and meaningful way.
One should be involved from the beginning.

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One should have the means to understand
why you're involved and what you can do.

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Most of all, what's very important is
getting feedback on decision making processes.

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So you know what you've participated
in and contributed to,

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and if you're not allowed
to participate, why that is.

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In the design processes
that you're talking about,

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there are similar conditions,
one should be involved from the beginning,

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and be informed of what
your involvement has led to.

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But it isn't a right
in the Convention, defined as such.

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There it could be more about
individuals participating, rather than organisations.

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But sometimes those processes overlap.

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Who can be involved?
Can everybody participate?

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I also work with standardisation
and there is a European standard.

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It is called
"accessibility through universal design".

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It deals with
these development processes.

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There we've said
that one should start by involving,

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those who can't use
a product or a service.

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The so-called "non-users".
They are aware of the obstacles.

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I sometimes say
"involve those who don't get to speak first".

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That's when you put more focus
on the questions that need to be solved.

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User involvement could also mean to
involve those who currently aren't users?

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Yes, I think that's a good start.
That makes it beneficial.

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You fix things
so more people can use it.

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On top of it being a right
to have access to all new developments.

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Can you involve everyone?

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There are lots of design methods
to involve users.

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There are numerous tools.

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You have to use
what's best suited for the target audience.

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You have to go over this
together with the target audience,

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so you're sure it's a good fit.

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In Sweden we've worked on something
called "Better together",

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where you'd use different focus groups.
Maybe this could be a good approach?

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Others have looked into
which types of involvement,

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the user, or the presumptive user,
gets the most influence over the process.

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I think that's important,
having influence over the process.

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It could feel meaningless to only be able
to try something that someone else made.

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Speaking of design processes,
which ones are best suited?

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Are there times where you
don't need or shouldn't involve users?

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It could be a challenge
finding people,

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who have the conditions to participate
that would also benefit from it.

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If you create something,
I think it's natural,

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to involve those who are 
supposed to use your product.

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Unfortunately,
you sometimes don't do this,

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until it's too late.
I think that's a waste of money.

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If you have the ability to do it,
I think a lot of those,

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who develop new things 
can benefit from it.

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Then comes the other side of it,
that I mentioned.

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When it's on a community level,
a political process,

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user involvement is a must
and you need to provide the means for participation.

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What about text production
and audiovisual production?

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These are usually daily
and you stress production.

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How would one involve users
in these processes?

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Speaking of universal design,
it's about everything new that people develop.

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When you're improving a process
or during development,

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that's when you
need to involve users.

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They can't be involved in every instance,
but should be when you're improving something.

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One more thing,
about universal design.

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One solution does not fit all.

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There should be a "menu" of solutions.

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You can't point out what "dish"
some people must pick.

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Everyone has the right to choose.

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It must be offered to everybody.

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So that someone
without disabilities can use it too,

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because it could be
beneficial in their current situation?

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Absolutely, if you're somewhere noisy
it helps to have the option to read a text.

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What pitfalls would you say
are prominent in this way of working?

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It needs to be mutually beneficial.

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When you involve non-users,
potential users,

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there has to be
some kind of benefit.

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It could be financial compensation
or another sort of benefit.

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You could work with an organisation
that benefits from a development process,

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that could help them
in their daily function.

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You have to make sure
it's mutually beneficial,

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and that people
have the means to participate.

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Nobody should make something meant
for someone else.

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Don't make the user a guinea pig.
Create something together.

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I want to bring up another thing,
that I know is a big problem.

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It's that you view people
as their disability.

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They aren't.
All people have different qualities.

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A disability is just one.
We have different things we like.

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If you're blind it's not guaranteed
that you like podcasts.

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Maybe you want to
look for information in a text.

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If you put a group together
make sure there's a diversity,

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of qualities, ages and so on.

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Don't view people
as their disabilities.

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Okay, one last question.

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What is the factor of success
in active involvement?

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View the process from the users perspective.
Users first, plain and simple.

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Users first.